How Stories Will Shape Your Kids' Character
An Interview with Foundation Father's M.A. Franklin (Fatherhood Fridays #5)
Last week, I interviewed fellow author and Dad writer
from . We talked about how important stories are for helping kids build character, some of his favorite books for kids, as well as his latest project to re-publish a premium edition of G.A. Henty’s classic The Dragon and The Raven.There’s a juicy list of great books we talked about at the end of the transcript.
M.A.’s Kickstarter Project for G.A. Henty’s The Dragon and The Raven
Support the campaign to get your own beautiful edition of this classic.
Transcript
Brandon Wilborn: I am here with Matt Franklin, MA Franklin, and he is also an author, but I don't know all that much about him, so I thought I'd let him introduce himself as we get our conversation started.
M.A. Franklin: So, I'm a veteran of the tech industry for about 15 years, but I also have an MFA in creative writing that I recently completed. I'm married, have three kids, and we homeschool and also do classical.
Thanks for having me. I have a few children's books, a couple of children's books out Princess Hiccup and The Rainbow Knight. Both were kick started, and I'm currently shopping around a middle grade post-apocalyptic. Novel.
BW: Post apocalyptic. Okay, cool. What and you write two Substacks, right? You've got Foundation Father and Bluster and Brine what are those about?
M.A.: Yeah, Foundation Father grew out of the Twitter account, X now, that I have, and mainly that speaks to fatherhood masculinity, and just home education in general because it's something, if you're going to write about something for a long time, it's got to be something that you actually have something to say about. And I'm not the most qualified for it.
I'm more qualified than a lot of other people.
BW: And you're in the trenches for it too.
M.A.: I'm in the trenches.
BW: There's a lot to learn there.
M.A.: And I do a lot of thinking about it and I've had a lot of mentors regarding that topic and then, yeah, the Bluster on Brine was more general stuff.
I post some fiction, some short stories over there and just some other more generalized essays.
BW: Okay. Yeah. I'm looking at doing a section on my own Substack because while the fatherhood articles and the cultural articles are fun, I'm, I really love writing fiction. So, this is the side project, but with all of that in mind with fatherhood and that idea of coming from that perspective:
What would you say are the top either authors, individual books, or series that you would recommend for kids?
M.A.: Yes, that.
BW: Individual books are just too hard because there's so many good series.
M.A.: Yeah, there's so many good ones. I would say,
I'm going to go one that's a little bit oddball. Some of Robert Heinlein's books, Juvenalia that he wrote. So, like, Have Space Suit Will Travel and Red Planet are fantastic to read aloud to kids, especially boys. So Have Space Suit Will Travel in particular, it has an older protagonist, he's like 17, 18 and he just gets basically kidnapped by aliens along with this other girl and they form this brother sister bond.
And it's just really, a really fun, classic story. And it's not, it's one where the parents aren't idiots. A lot of these middle grade novels, they have to Why doesn't the dad just step in and save the day? Let's just make him a doofus. That's why he doesn't, that's why he doesn't save the day.
BW: No, this, yeah, we don't like those so much. Even though sometimes dad is a doofus, but not constantly, usually.
M.A.: Not intentionally. But so those two, I would definitely recommend. I'd also say a lot of N.D. Wilson's Books, Leepike Ridge, Boys of Blur, and The Hundred Cupboards series are all, all great. There's one, forgot the name of the author, but it's called Call It Courage (by Armstrong Sperry), which is just about a boy on in the South Pacific islands, and he's, he gets shipwrecked on an island, and there's cannibals, and all sorts of stuff, but that one is really short.
And really good and makes a very good impact really quickly.
BW: That's a good variety. I like that. Yeah. Yeah. I tend to go for, especially for kind of that formative age, like Hatchet (by Gary Paulsen). It was a big one for me.
M.A.: Yeah, I haven't read Hatchet, but I've heard it's good.
BW: My Side of the Mountain (by Jean Craighead George) same kind of idea, boy's Adventure. Any for girls?
M.A.: I've read all those too with my daughter there as well, and she's liked them. Girls are a lot easier to get into books cause they'll they can get into the spirit a lot faster than boys it seems like. But I would say Wolf Hollow by Lauren Wolk. Yeah.
It's great for girls. That's a historical novel takes place cusp of World War II but it's just in Pennsylvania, I think. And it's just girls getting bullied and then there's also this World War I veteran who has very severe post-traumatic stress syndrome, and then how all these write together.
It's really a beautifully written book, too. Okay. It's. It's fantastic. That's one I'd be remiss if I didn't mention The Wingfeather Saga (by Andrew Peterson), which is always good.
BW: Yeah. For modern, I think we oftentimes think about older stuff, but for new things, modern Wingfeather’s fantastic. Have you seen the shows yet?
M.A.: I haven't seen the shows.
BW: They're fairly accurate to the, at least the first season has been fairly accurate to the first book and, okay. And well done. Okay. They've got some good actors and the animation's a little a little bit on the low budget end, but still looks nice.
M.A.: You'd expect that. Animation's expensive. Yeah. But yeah, I, for anyone the first book in particular, I think he hadn't found his feet. His seat legs, so to speak. But I, I really think, if everything that happened in the first book happened in like the first few chapters of the second book, that would be great.
Because the, that series really does take off in the second book. And that's where I think he found his voice. So if you're reading it and you're like, man, what is this? I know a lot of people like, you still like the first book, but for us it was hard to get through. But if you're reading it and you're thinking, man, why did he recommend this book?
It's because it leads to some really fantastic stories.
BW: That's, that's a good uh, good apologetic there. Let's move on. As far as dads go, how do you think we can use story as a parenting tool? Especially one to form character?
M.A.: I think story is the main way we shape character because we're, whenever we're thinking about what we're going to do, we have this image of ourself and what we should do, what we want to do, and all these commingling desires and disciplines or whatever that has been infused into us.
And we're trying to enact some kind of character. We're going to be a character in a story whether we like it or not, right? And so we can be a good character or we can be bad character. This story, this little vignette, we probably aren't even the main character. We might be the supporting character to make someone else look good.
So, all these other things I think so in terms of using story, I think. It's inevitable that we do. I think it's just something that naturally happens. And we get all that, all the way back to the beginning that people have understood this with Aesop's fables. With just the raw, here's the moral of the story.
And so people have understood this for a long time. But there's also the other way that stories shape us. And the stories we tell ourselves really affects what we think is good and beautiful and it shapes our affections in certain ways. And so, what we put in our heads and the types of stories we tell is important for that reason.
And the movies we watch. As well, movies are a great way to practice or at least stretch those muscles of discernment because they're a lot faster to get through than a book usually.
BW: So, I found that when I just explained some of that to my kids, even though they're elementary age, but just explaining that, especially from a movie perspective, they start to see and they go Oh, yeah.
Okay. I see what you mean. That would not be a good thing to follow through on. And I'm going to be more careful about what I'm putting in my head and they respond really quickly. And then they then they look for better stuff and they're smart. Yeah. They're smart enough.
M.A.: They're smart. And they, but sometimes they just need that. No one has built that bridge for them yet, or they didn't even know a bridge could be built between these two things like, Oh yeah. That makes total sense. And so, once they connect the dots that's one of the more fun things about parenting, noticing when kids finally connect the dots about something.
BW: I asked that question largely because you came from coming from the tech world. My dad was an engineer, and I never saw him read a novel ever. It was always nonfiction. And then even when I wrote my first novel, he got offended that I didn't include, he got offended that I dedicated it to my mom, who always read to us.
It's like, I didn't think you would actually read it, dad, so he just didn't follow this whole idea of story being something that shapes us. And but fortunately now that he's getting older, he's starting to realize that and want to be more, more cautious about his own choices there, which is good.
M.A.: So, yeah, one example of my daughter just finished the first Hunger Games book (by Suzanne Collins), she's 14 and she just this is the first time she's read it. And so, we had some good conversations about that, about what do you think about the ending? Have you ever, cause like, the ending of that, Is they, she and Peta, the two of the main characters are the last one standing and they basically make a suicide pact as the solution to their problem.
So, it's okay, so let's talk about, is that really a good solution to the problem they're facing? And so that, that type of conversation and just asking questions about what does that naturally lead to? What would happen if they did this instead? What would, you know, all sorts of things.
And so just. Those types of stories, you don't want to read uncritically, because it can just put, even if it's just a mite in your brain, that thing can vibrate and create some other things that just aren't good in the future.
BW: Yeah, and that's easy to sometimes it's easy to see and sometimes it's very subtle.
And then other times it's so often repeated that it becomes the, just the assumption of how you operate, and we don't even see it.
What do you think are the values or the virtues that maybe are ignored right now in kids’ media that could be rebolstered?
M.A.: Honestly, don't watch a lot of newer kids media. Yeah. And so it's,
BW: That could be books that could be—
M.A.: Yeah, so yeah man, I don't know the…
I think one, one thing is the different ways that different genders can show courage or virtue. Cause we, the, one of the main sins of our age is the androgyny or the, we're just trying to completely erase all differences. between men and women. And a lot of stories reflect that in a lot of different ways.
You have the nineties light feminism, which still, which still had that, but they always threw a bone to more traditional things. Like the man could still save the woman at some point at the end. But nowadays it's nothing like that. So especially for boys, a lot of the newer stories coming out just do not have—do not understand any masculine virtues or what makes boys really tick and what they want to do, what they see as desirable or courageous. And then people complain that boys don't want to read anymore. But I think that's the big one. But also, yeah, that, that would be one of the big ones.
Also respect for authority is a big one as well, because most, it seems, especially middle grade novels and things are all about tearing down authority making sure only what's in your heart is an authority or only yourself is the authority.
And there are exceptions to this, of course, but for the most part children's media has followed the spirit of the age and that type of thing. And it's not that there's never a time to defy authority, but in general those things are, were put in place for reasons, especially with parents.
Parents are the big one. We mentioned it before we've got to get the parents out of the way for there even to be a story. How they decide to do that tells you a lot about what they want you to think about the relationship between parents and children. So the
BW: It's not new, but like the whole concept of—actually I just wrote about it today.
Every Disney movie, there's at least one parent missing. But you can go back to Roald Dahl and see the same thing, just over and over again. You see this, the chaos that comes from the removal of authority and the pain and the trouble that can bring, which is, it's a really easy way to get in to both relate to the character and feel some compassion for them, sympathy and get an emotional hook, but it also then opens up to make them somewhat the authority.
Yeah. It's a two-edged sword in that way. In some ways. And I think, yeah, I think for me, one of the ones I point out, or the one of the ones I think I see more often, is just even within the kids entertainment, it's gotten ugly.
The authority factor is one, but it just like the fact that, hey, if mom and dad are watching The Walking Dead, then the kids need their own zombie show, it's just, it's good. And we're not actually tracing anything true and beautiful in this for its own sake, it's—let's acknowledge some ugliness in the world, maybe, but have the beauty to counteract that rather than just, okay, it's all hideous and grim.
And you wonder why kids are freaking out about the end of the world, because most of the stories they've grown up with have been about that.
M.A.: Yeah. Yeah, you have the, one of the more popular series, The Last Kids on Earth (by Max Brallier), which is a, not a graphic novel, but it's an illustrated novel series of novels.
But yeah, it's kids, everyone else is gone. You have a few kids and there's a bunch of zombies and monsters around. Yeah. And not that this story can't work, but the way they do it, it's mostly played for laughs because that's just the tone of the story. But it's just like what you're talking about.
We need some kind of post-apocalyptic environment, and we need to undermine the common virtues that we see. And every, all the boys need to be taken down a notch. The girl's the one who can really take care of herself. So, it's just the same trope over and over again.
BW: I wanted to ask you one more question, but we're going to have run out of time on the recording here.
So why don't you go ahead and tell us about your project you're working on that is reversing some of that and trying to bring back some good virtuous stuff.
M.A.: Oh, yeah. So, I'm trying to reprint one of the novels of G. A. Henty. It's called The Dragon and the Raven. Now he wrote over a hundred historical novels back in the late 1800s.
And this one in particular is, takes place in the days of King Alfred, when Vikings were raiding with impunity across the island of Britain. And yeah, it's just, Henty was a Christian And he really cared about the virtues of young men in particular, and even started every book with a letter that were, “to my dear lads”, which acted as a preface to each book.
And so it is, it's a really great book. Classic adventure story. They get formulaic. He found his formula and stuck to it because he knew exactly who his audience was. Yeah. But you're not intended to really read all of them. You're supposed to pick and choose which historical figures or time periods you're interested in, want to learn more about, because he does weave the fictional narrative in with the history very well.
And the Dragon and the Raven I really loved. When I listened to it.
BW: So very cool. You listened to it, audio.
M.A.: I did. I did listen to it. Yeah.
BW: Okay, great. I'm going to go ahead and put the link to the Kickstarter in whenever, wherever I post this or along with the email or whatever, but what is the thing that might help people say, yeah, I want to get it, get on board and get a copy of this in its new form.
M.A.: Yeah. So, we have all new illustrations, both for the cover and interior. And all new map to help orient yourself to what Saxon England might've looked like at the time. And the more backers we get, and first it's Kickstarter. So, it's all or nothing. If we don't get a certain amount, it's just not going to be printed.
But then the more backers we get, the more funding that we get, we're just make the book better and better more illustrations more bells and whistles, more maps, and it's already going to be a deluxe hardcover. Premium binding, cloth bounds. Oil stamp. So we wanted to give a package that the story deserved.
Very cool. Instead of just a cheap paperback.
BW: Yeah, that's wonderful. Cool. Thank you very much for joining me. And I would love to talk to you more about the Kickstarter offline, if you're okay with that, because I'm starting my own at the end of the year. And you sound like you've done it a few times, but thanks again, man.
And I appreciate all the work you're doing on Substack and the other, and good luck with your other novel projects.
M.A.: Oh yeah. Thank you. Appreciate it.
Books Mentioned in the Interview (affiliate links below)
Princess Hiccup by Matthew Robison
The Rainbow Knight by Matthew Robison
Have Space Suit Will Travel by Robert Heinlein
Red Planet by Robert Heinlein
Leepike Ridge by N.D. Wilson
Boys of Blur by N.D. Wilson
The Hundred Cupboards (series) by N.D. Wilson
Call It Courage by Armstrong Sperry
Hatchet by Gary Paulsen
My Side of the Mountain by Jean Craighead George
Wolf Hollow by Lauren Wolk
The Wingfeather Saga by Andrew Peterson
The Hunger Games by Suzanne Collins
The Last Kids on Earth by Max Brallier
Updates:
1. Imago Dad now has a section for my own fiction and drawings. If you like Sci-Fi, check out the first post, wich is a military sci-fi set on Mars. It’s “DOOM” with a conspiracy twist.
2. Dog Knights and The Orb of Power, my first kids’ book for early readers will get its own Kickstarter to finish all the pieces for publication coming in early 2025.
You can help me bring back chivalry! If you’re curious about a series that promotes virtues for kids through funny and adventurous stories, then please sign up here to be notified when the Kickstarter is ready. Expect the campaign after the holiday rush.
It’s a collaborative project with my daughter, so we’re using a pen name. She can’t wait to see it become real. I hope you’ll join the campaign and help spread the virtues that created (and can revitalize) our culture.
I’ll be posting more updates under my articles as the book and campaign take shape.
In addition to Imago Dad, Brandon Wilborn writes speculative fiction with spiritual themes. His current project is a series for young readers about a dog with an imagination that highlights the classic virtues of our Judeo-Christian heritage. But he’s already got a couple of fantasy books and stories available at BrandonWilborn.com